Holigolitely posted an article on her blog entitled, “I Wanna Go Out And Do Something Fun and I Don’t Mean Walking Along Some Silly Nature Trail.”
She pointed out that “With every passing day, Downtown Winnipeg gets more and more desolate. The Winnipeg version of progress is truly sucking ass. It seems to me that while we were all home nurturing our children, the boring, anti-fun league took over the city.”
I generally agreed that urban culture has changed and that dives or places were people go to blow off steam are getting rarer, although I like hiking trails.
I guess all of Holigolitely’s readers are not on the same wave length as one reader (Joe) wrote back and blamed the current city decline on laziness.
(See Joe’s first post below)
Okay so I got a bit PO’ed as I really hate when people blame welfare recipients for the big economic problems, I think it is nonsense of the first order. I pointed out that from my socialist opinion that the fault was on the Banks for loaning money.
(see my first post below)
Joe responded to my post pointing out that there are jobs out there but people don’t want to work, and reiterated that people that could not afford to pay borrowed the money so who’s fault is it.
(see Joe’s second post below)
Then I went searching and found the stats for Winnipeg showing that there were not a lot of jobs and I outlined how I saw the financial situation.
(see my last post below)
Joe responded by blaming the responsible and referring back to the lazy (those that won’t work)
(see Joe’s last post below)
Now I have to give Joe credit although I disagree with him he has been very civil not once has he tried to attack me, but has kept to his opinion, the only thing I can criticize him on is a lack of evidence to support his point, but as he said and we both agreed this was getting off topic when it addressed Holigolitely’s original article. I decided that Joe might like to as he said “take this discussion further.”
So I have hijacked it from Holigolitely’ Blog. I don’t feel too guilty as Holigolitely is also a contributing editor here as you know. (that said if she would like to move this back to her Blog I have no problem with that)
First of all I don’t think I will ever agree with Joe on this point so If he choose not to debate it I will understand, secondly I promise to be reasonable and this debate will inevitably end in a stalemate so won’t keep it going ad infinitum.
So Joe as you didn’t flesh out your last point now is your chance as you say to “type a lot of ideas, and take this discussion further”
Joe 6 November 2009
I think Winnipeg is becoming increasingly, a welfare town. The neighbourhoods are falling apart. People sitting around with nothing but spare time, getting a cheque from the government. They resort to all sorts of dysfunctional behaviour, but generally don’t go to bars to party. When those who work hard for a living go to their jobs, these people are just going to bed. We are plauged by the lazy.
A wise co-worker pointed out that the rest of North America has been suffering from a Depression, but Winnipeg has not. He suggested that the reason is, Winnipeg has been in a depression for a long time before this…so there is no change here.
Any activity that gets you out of the city is great! Even if it is a boring nature trail… beats getting shanked.
And I think the so called “kids” are smart to stay home. Going to the bars that remain open is dangerous. With all the street gangs and lack of common decency out there, going out is risky. Maybe they should work on their spelling, granted…. But, I won’t knock them for avoiding the danger.
billarends 9 November 2009
Joe I disagree. I don’t live in Winnipeg but I disagree. Why? Because the first thing those that have money do, when there is a problem is blame those that don’t have money. The issue is that those that have, were greedy and created a situation that has caused this depression. It’s that simple. It has NOTHING to do with Laziness. I would like your definition of Dysfunctional behaviour, would that be hanging out selling drugs because there are no jobs for them to earn money legitimately. And don’t tell me that there are lots of jobs out there or you haven’t looked recently. As for street gangs and crap in Winnipeg give me a break. Winnipeg may not be the safest city on the planet but try going to New York City or Los Angeles or Chicago. Personally I think that investment in Winnipeg is down because entrepreneurs don’t have money to invest why because there isn’t enough out there. Don’t blame welfare don’t blame young people try looking at those that really caused the problem, the people that wanted big returns on their investments so loaned money at interest to those they knew couldn’t pay it back. As for Holigolitely’s original post, she is talking about places these young folks can go that will take them off the street, a solution to depression, not whining about welfare types or street kids etc..
Joe 11 November 2009
Bill, I agree that my comments go beyond the scope of the article, but people generally do not party much if they are unemployed.
For every evil banker handing out loans to the poor, there are eager poor people borrowing more money than they can handle… It just depends on your political perspective on the topic who you think is to blame. I see blame on both sides.
Besides, the company I work for has trouble finding people who want to work. This summer I`ve personally worked over 70 hours every week! The pay is considerably higher than minimum, and I for one am so busy.. I don`t have any time to party…
billarends 12 November
It all depends on what your company does. Keep in mind that most job losses were at the lowest level those that require less training or less education not everyone is cut out to be an accountant or even machinist. Stats Canada recorded and the Winnipeg Free Press reported that “Employment fell by 400,000, or 2.3 per cent, between October 2008 and October 2009, while the unemployment rate rose to 8.6 per cent from 6.3. The manufacturing and construction sectors suffered the largest employment declines in all three economic downturns. StatsCan reports 218,000 manufacturing jobs were lost, or 11 per cent, from October 2008 to October 2009, and the decline was widespread. The agency says manufacturers suffering notable decreases included fabricated metal products; transportation equipment manufacturing; paper and printing; and furniture and related manufacturing. Construction employment dropped by 73,000, or 5.8 per cent, all of it during the first five months.”
Albeit the trend has stabilized, this is no rosie picture to anyone.
As you can see by the stats it is the working poor that caught the brunt of this. Although the reduction in construction jobs was not a total disaster there was a 36% drop in housing starts which means that those that were working will soon not be working unless there is a bounce back before the current jobs end these folks are screwed.
Also the eager people you are describing are not the poor. Most of them would not even think to take on a mortgage it is the working poor the non-lazy ones that are the ones that took the loans and mortgagees and credit cards. If you’re lazy and don’t work people don’t give you money even as a loan banks are greedy not stupid.
Argue all you want that both sides are to blame, from a causational point of view if the banks did not offer the loans then the would be no crisis. If people were not told they could buy a house with no down payment we would not be in this problem. The club of Rome (think tank) back in the 50s and 60’s said that there were limits to growth. More people borrowing money means more money needs to be made, and the only way to do that is to grow the productivity that exists. No growth no money. We are going to hit the limit of growth and thus the banks are going to have to accept that they have reached the maximum amount they can loan before people stop paying it back. My parents taught me to only loan out the maximum amount of money that you are willing to loose. The banks would loan out everything they had if they thought that they would get it all back with interest. Sorry that is just greed.
Joe 13 November 2009
Wow. I could really type a lot of ideas, and take this discussion further, but as you said earlier, we are getting off topic.
All I can say is there will be people who disagree with me.
Irresponsibility is rampant out there. Everyone thinks they are entitled to their piece of the pie, even if they haven’t earned it. This applies to those who do not work for a living, as much as it applies to those who work but are borrowing irresponsibly. Even applies to the Banks who are loaning the money out. There is a general lack of responsibility out there… and eventually it will catch up to us.